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Going Digital with Guests Jorge Granier and Rich Hull: MakingBank S1E55


Jorge Granier and Rich Hull

Going Digital with Guests Jorge Granier and Rich Hull: MakingBank S1E55


Jorge Granier and Rich Hull

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The identity of America is changing, and changing rapidly. The country is becoming an increasingly beautiful mosaic of different cultures, ethnicities, languages, religions, and experiential backgrounds. And one of the most prominent and explosively-growing components of that mosaic is the Latino community—a community that is on-pace to make up more than 20% of the overall US population in the next couple of years.

Yet, the size, scope, and reach of this growing group has been largely ignored by one of America’s most prominent and profitable industries:


Right now, there is a Grand Canyon-sized gap between consumer demand for, and market supply of, Latino-centric entertainment.

Yes, there are few channels on TV like Univision and Telemundo, but they’re only taking a small sliver of the entertainment profit pie. Most of it continues to go uneaten.

Fortunately, that’s about to change thanks to the focused efforts of two successful entertainment entrepreneur-investors, Mr. Rich Hull and Mr. Jorge Granier. Their company PONGALO—a digital media company based in the US—owns one of the largest libraries of Spanish-language content in the world. And that library is slowly but surely being made available to Spanish-speaking Americans through PONGALO’s modestly-priced subscription based model.

Though it may not be entirely accurate to call PONGALO the “Spanish-speaker’s Netflix” right now, the reality is PONGALO could become a similar digital media juggernaut over the coming decade, particularly as the US-based Spanish-speaking audience continues to grow.

Remember—mobile device ownership and mobile media consumption is MASSIVE in the Latino community (in fact, no other cultural demographic owns as many mobile devices). Coupled with mobile media consumption’s unwavering rise in the general US population, and it’s reasonable to assume PONGALO’s industry footprint will become increasingly massive.

So, with all of that said, join host Josh Felber on today’s episode of Making Bank, as he sits down with both Rich and Jorge to discuss their respective media backgrounds, their interest in catering digital media to the Spanish-speaking community, their vision for future development of PONGALO, and much, MUCH more, including…

• Why TV—like radio—will never die

• How, when, and where Millenials like to consume media

• The defining characteristic of new-age media

• Why pigeon-holing (left unchecked) can destroy your potential

• The fragility of free-speech

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Josh Felber: Welcome back to Making Bank. I am Josh Felber and I’m excited today to have on two guests from out in the TV, movie, video production world. This is a new one. We’ve always had on all different sorts of entrepreneurs and I’m excited because they have a lot of awesome content to share with you today. My two guests are Rich Hall and Jorge Granier. Lets see.

Rich is a proven leader of the private equity backed media and entertainment companies. He’s an expert at monetizing media in the digital age; as well as a successful financier, deal maker, and operator with particular expertise in high growth situations. Rich has also produced teen movies that have been extremely successful that we’ll dive into a little bit later. He has also worked in media deals and turnarounds totalling well over a billion dollars with major media companies such as Disney, Universal, MGM, Warner Bros., Microsoft, and many others. As well as he has co-authored a multi-word winning book, Dancing with Digital Natives: Staying in Step with the Generations That’s Transforming the Way Business is Done.

As well as Jorge has also been involved in the media production world as well with the show Jane the Virgin that was brought over from Latin America. Right?

Jorge Granier: Yes.

Josh Felber: Now is launching, or has launched in the United States as well. His family also runs the RCTV where the show is originally adopted from. Guys, welcome to the show Making Bank. I’m excited to have you on here today.

Rich Hall: Thanks, Josh. We’re happy to be here

Jorge Granier: [Crosstalk 00:02:31].

Josh Felber: I guess, give us a quick background real fast on how you got started Rich, and then maybe Jorge could jump in a little bit after that.

Rich Hall: Sure. I’ve been in the media and entertainment space for about 20 years now. I started as a film financier and producer. Probably did about 20 different movies and TV shows.

About eight or nine years ago, I was teaching a film finance class at UCLA and getting all these questions about digital and didn’t know anything about it. Arguably at the time, nobody knew anything about it. Maybe today nobody knows anything about it. So as I went off and started teaching myself about it, I created an advisory business on the side that advised two buckets of people.

One were private equity groups coming into entertainment for the first time because of digital. Probably the biggest deal we did there was a several hundred million dollar co-financing deal at one of the big studios.

Then the other bucket were the studios themselves, which was ultimately almost every studio. It just made me a guy that knows very traditional film and TV on one side, digital media on the other side; and then the finance of how you pay for all that.

At the time, I was getting a little bored with the movie business. One of the first movies I made was this high school movie called She’s All That that did well enough that people started to think of me as one of the teen movie guys. Every time I tried to stray out of that, everyone said “No, no, no. That’s not what you do. You’re the teen movie guy.” I was just getting a little bored. I was kind of making the same movie over and over again.

I got a chance to do a turnaround of a big media and entertainment company for one of the major entertainment banks, so I jumped at that because it did all the stuff I know how to do. Built it back up, broke it apart, sold off some of the pieces, got a big chunk of the money back for the bank and sort of became a deal guy as well.

About three years ago, I was looking around for what my next thing would be and I was really excited about digital media. I knew something … that I wanted to do something in digital media. I also grew up in Texas so Hispanic media has just always been in my world. If you remember, [crosstalk 00:04:30] years ago everyone was looking at the data about the Latino audience and it was just exploding. It was just the fastest growing demographic in America. I just thought I want to do something that sits at the collision of these two things, the Latino space and the digital media space.

One day I went to go meet a friend for a beer and he showed up with an Android phone and said “Hey, I got this for 99 bucks and I can do everything on it except watch film and TV shows because there’s nowhere to get ‘em.” I thought well, that’s a great idea number one. Number two, somebody’s got to be doing that.

Josh Felber: Right.

Rich Hall: I thought I’m going to go find that guy and buy them and grow them. Sure enough, my buddy was right, it didn’t exist. So I said, “All right, lets start Netflix for Latinos.”

Not too long after that, I met Jorge. We were just friends socially, so we’d get together and hang out. We kept talking about the opportunities that we saw in the Latino digital media space. After a while, we realized every time we got together, we were both saying the same thing. We both saw the same opportunity and realized we were better together than we were apart and ended up starting this company called Latin Everywhere.

Josh Felber: Awesome. Jorge, give us a little bit about where your background, you got started. I noticed it said your family had started the whole TV and the TV business and everything.

Jorge Granier: I come from a big broadcasting family from Venezuela so that put me in the media business at a very young age. Started producing shows when I was 15 years old. From there I grew that to become producer and director of a documentary on Pablo Escobar that was still to this day the highest grossing documentary in Columbia. I made a movie as well and through all this I was preparing to run this business in Venezuela, but in 2007, the government took it over and shut it down. I was forced to leave Venezuela and come to the United States.

Through that I started learning about distribution and new distribution platforms and we had a big library of content that had been sold around the world and had been very successful. I started to thinking about new ways of exploiting that and using that in different and creative ways.

One of the things that we saw was digital media. Looking at platforms like Netflix and Hulu launch in the United States, and seeing where that was going and how that was going to change the business. The other one was finding product in Latin America or around the world and turning it into American TV shows.

Josh Felber: Okay.

Jorge Granier: The latter part, I started with a show that originally been done in Venezuela as a telenovela called Juana la Virgin. We adapted that show into an American TV episodic, once a week show called Jane the Virgin. That’s been a great success. Won a Golden Globe, a Peabody Award, a People’s Choice Award; so it’s been very well received critically and also by the audience. It’s doing very well for the CW where its aired. It’s already done two seasons. It’s going now to its third season.

We also have shows in development at ABC, Warner Bros., Fox at different stages of development. That’s been a business that’s definitely struck a cord and signifies something; because of I think the growth of the Latinos in the United States and the success of these shows and stories around the world.

The other side was all those shows were there and they’d been shown on broadcast once or twice around the world, but now with digital they could be shown to a whole new audience and …  millions of times. We started aggregating those rights and that’s about the time that I met Rich and we figured that we were doing the same thing. Him more in film, me more in television for Latin America. It just made sense for us to come together and launch this company that’s Latin Everywhere.

Josh Felber: Okay. Real quick, one of the things I know you mentioned too is your business that you had in Venezuela originally, the government came in and took it and shut it down?

Jorge Granier: Yes. Unfortunately we’ve been living for the past 18 years on a socialist regime and they don’t like private enterprise. They just … and especially particularly free media and freedom of speech, so they took that over.

Josh Felber: That’s just … I mean that’s unbelievable that something like that could just happen now these days anymore. Well cool. It sounds like you guys have synced up and are working in the process of really creating and building something awesome.

Couple of things, I know you mentioned broadcast TV and going digital and things like that. I want to get … We got to take a break here in a minute, but when we come back, I want to get your thoughts, is broadcast TV as we know it right now and in the past, dead? Is the digital platform, people with their iPhones and Androids and iPads and things, is that going to be the new platform where we’re watching media and that’s where we’re going to be paying attention to it? I definitely like to hear your thoughts on that when we get back. So can you guys stick around for a few more minutes?

Rich Hall: Yeah.

Jorge Granier: Sure.

Josh Felber: Awesome. I am Josh Felber and you’re watching Making Bank. We’ll be right back.

Josh Felber: I am Josh Felber, welcome back to Making Bank. We’ve been speaking with Rich and Jorge, and getting a little bit of education on TV broadcasting, digital media and where it’s headed is what we’re getting ready to dive in to. Welcome back guys. I’m glad you’re here on Making Bank today.

Jorge Granier: Thanks.

Rich Hall: Thanks.

You had asked before the break what is the future of broadcast TV. It’s certainly a topic that we talk about every single day. I think that people have been pronouncing the death of television for a long time. I don’t think that it’s going to happen. I think what you’re seeing is you’re seeing it become one of many parts of people’s media diet.

When all is said and done, a screen is a screen is a screen, whether it’s a movie screen or a TV screen or an iPad screen or the screen on your phone. That screen is just a way to consume entertainment. What you’re seeing is the audiences on broadcast TV are declining, but they’re not going away entirely.

A lot of that is driven by younger audiences, the 18-34 crowd; because the fact is when most people go to college now, they don’t get a cable subscription like they did when I went to school. In fact, most people don’t have a TV in their dorm room anymore because they’re glued to their phone all the time. That’s the opportunity that Jorge and I saw because our audience is largely that 18-34 millennial audience that has somewhat abandoned television. But they’ll come in and out of it. For most of our audience, they access our content on mobile devices.

It’s pretty interesting if you think about. It’s a complete sea change in the way we consume entertainment. Go have a conversation with any 18-34 year old and they’re constantly glued to their phone. Or, take your 12-year old and try to punish her by sending her to her room without television. She doesn’t care. She’ll just watch stuff on her phone. That’s really the opportunity that we saw. Which is particularly in the Latino space, Latinos have more mobile devices than any other audience, including the general population. We saw them being completely underserved in their media needs. That’s the reason we started this company in the first place.

Jorge Granier: To your question, I don’t think television is dead. People who claim that a lot, I think it’s just like radio. Now radio has stayed around and it has evolved into podcasts like yours and other forms of people listening to it. Likewise with television. I think what definitely has changed and that’s been a seismic shift is people’s viewing habits.

Television will remain a very important medium for live events, news, sports, things like the Olympics that are coming up. More and more, people will watch what they want, when they want, where they want; whether that’s on a big screen in their living room to watch a series or something that brings them together; or whether that’s on a smaller screen in their phone on their way to work or on their way back home.

We see a lot of potential there with our shows that have done really well in television into putting them in people’s hands and being able for people to watch them whenever they want and at their leisure. The results so far has been amazing in terms of the audiences that we’re getting and the engagement that we’re having on mobile devices.

Rich Hall: I think that’s what drives us. I think we’ve seen a shift in our culture from a culture of ownership to a culture of access. Like when I was growing up, I wanted to own all my favorite movies on DVD. I wanted to have them on the shelf, touch them, feel them, pull them down watch them whenever I wanted to. Now, when was the last time you bought a DVD or a CD? You’d be hard-pressed to tell me.

Today, it’s a culture of access. We want everything anywhere, anytime, any device. That’s what we’re trying to do, is to provide people with that. As Jorge mentioned, so far its been great.

When we set out to build this business, we looked around and we saw people that had built other mobile platforms, streaming platforms where they’d tried to do the same thing for a specific audiences. We saw that they always had the same point of failure which is when they would go out and spend all their time building out technology and then they’d go try to get content. As it turns out, getting content’s hard, so they would fail.

As you can tell, Jorge and I are both content guys. We come from that world. We said, “Well, let’s build this in reverse.” Let’s go get a bunch of content first and then we’ll deal with the technology part down the road. It’s all driven by that idea of a culture of access. Let’s get a ton of content so that our audience can watch whatever they want. We like that. We feel it’s a very respectful way to look at your audience. We’re not, unlike in traditional media where we program for them, we give them the chance to program for themselves. We just give them the options. You want to watch in English or Spanish today? You want to watch TV, movies, telenovelas? You tell us. That’s what drives us when we think about the business we’re building.

Josh Felber: The way with what you guys are doing, moving in with the focus on digital and providing- it sounds like instant access. Is all your priority more focused on just Latino or is it just general population overall? I mean, what are you guys really dialing in at?

Jorge Granier: Our focus are Latinos. Our product is a Spanish language product. We have some content that’s in both languages. We’re definitely expanding on that area. We see a great opportunity and an open market right now for the US Latinos, and lack of options in the digital realm for them.

Josh Felber: Along the way, have you guys found that … I guess, how you guys monetizing that piece of it? Is it similar to regular broadcast TV where you have commercials, or is it more Netflix based where it’s just straight in an access type fee?

Rich Hall: We’ve done it in a couple different phases. Originally we licensed some content to third party platforms like all the people you just mentioned. Then we realized that there was a much more interesting opportunity to go direct to consumer so that we could have a conversation directly with them, which is one of the great things about digital. It’s like A) you can do a lot of experimenting; and B) you can have a two-way conversation which doesn’t exist in traditional media.

Josh Felber: Right.

Rich Hall: We took a little bit of our content and put it onto a single YouTube channel called Pongalo, like P-O-N-G-A-L-O. It worked really well. So, we thought let’s build another channel, and another channel, and another channel. Now there’s Pongalo Movies, and Pongalo Comedies, and Pongalo Dramas.

I think today we’re the largest film and TV player for Latinos on YouTube. We have about 10 million subscribers. Last year we surpassed about 2 billion views of our content. We’ve learned a lot about how to program, how to talk to our audience on YouTube. Because we saw such a good reception and built such a big base of eyeballs and audience on YouTube, that’s what then led us into the next step which was let’s create our own platform where we can offer really premium stuff that we probably wouldn’t be able to offer on YouTube that would just simply be ad-supported, because that’s the only way you can monetize YouTube. Let’s drive some of those people that are really interested in that premium content over to our own platform at Pongalo, also of the same name, Pongalo, where we can monetize them a little bit better and we can give them that premium stuff.

A lot of people don’t like to take their most premium content, whether it’s something we own or whether something we license from somebody else, and make it available to audiences for free. They feel like that devalues their content. They want to have it sit behind a pay wall and we don’t get the option to do that on YouTube the way we’d like to. So, we decided to do it on our own platform. That’s the phase we’re in today.

Last year, we launched a free version of our streaming platform, Pongalo, as a way to gather data and figure out how the audience would use it. Then we took that data and we used it to build version 2.0 which is a subscription platform which is launching right now.

Josh Felber: What did you guys, with the whole YouTube, are you guys still pushing out content to YouTube as well? Or is it just all moved over to your in-house platform?

Jorge Granier: No. YouTube continues to be a big part of our business and a great partner to us. We see that as the best marketing platform we could have. We continue to improve our YouTube skills and audience development and content curation and growth. There’s still- all our channels run new content almost weekly. We add new channels from other creators that have similar product to ours as well on a regular basis. That’s an audience that we strive to continue to grow.

We do that not only for ourselves, but we also do that for other companies that want to understand better the YouTube platform and how to get content out there and have a strategy around it. We’ve been luckily very successful so far with that, and continue to grow the audience month over month.

Josh Felber: How do you feel with the whole Facebook video and all that? Have you guys really started to push any content that way? To try-

Jorge Granier: Yeah. Facebook is- it’s an amazing platform because of it’s massive size. The issue with Facebook is monetization of the videos

Josh Felber: Sure.

Jorge Granier: -and interaction. Most of the people on Facebook are watching audio-less video. They never actually click on it to get the audio. Given our programming which is a bit more premium than the general stuff, we prefer YouTube as a platform, but Facebook is definitely another means to get our content out there and really market ourselves and gain a bigger audience.

Josh Felber: Awesome. What do you guys see in those trends and habits with digital media and the way that your audiences are really engaging with that? I know you touched base a little bit on that, but I think that was quite interesting.

Jorge Granier: The biggest answer to that question I think is mobile. People are going mobile.

Rich Hall: I was going to say the same thing but I was going to say mobile, mobile, mobile.

Jorge Granier: Yeah. Mobile is the biggest thing. That’s where we’re seeing people going. That’s where we’re seeing consumer content. Again, mobile’s evolved so much that you can really watch it anywhere. You can have it on your phone and cast it to your TV if you want to watch it on a bigger screen. The access point now is mobile and that’s making huge, huge growth. That’s where we’re focused on now. Improving our apps and making that user experience better, then adding more and more content to our offering.

Josh Felber: Essentially you guys that is- on that mobile platform is where you’re seeing the biggest engagement and everything. What are people’s focus and kind of bandwidth  that they’re able to give to that? Because there’s so much going on in as more younger kids and they’re more engaged on that mobile platform, the timeframe that they’re dedicating to certain pieces is a lot smaller than it used to be when we would sit down and watch a show for an hour, or a movie for two hours.

Rich Hall: Except that the aggregation of those pieces equals more consumption of entertainment.

Jorge Granier: We’re seeing people spend more time on their phones. Particularly with our content, but premium content in general. People will watch for longer periods of time and have more sessions throughout the day that add to a bigger TV watching experience.

Rich Hall: It’s important, like digital has grown the overall pie. If all you have is a TV business, your mindset is I don’t want to get into digital because I don’t want to cannibalize my legacy TV business. The reality of it is digital has grown the overall pie, which is really important.

You’re going to see all these different types of media I think in the future come together under the same roof. Movies, TV, digital, it’s kind of all created by the- and distributed by the same groups as those different viewing experiences consolidate.

Josh Felber: I think that definitely makes good sense with the whole fact you’re seeing that more and more consumption throughout the day. I guess if people have a few free 10 minutes or something, instead of sitting at home where you’re locked right there in your chair watching your TV, you can pick it up and watch on the subway, or on the airplane, or whatever it may be.

Rich Hall: Right. You may not watch a full 30 minute episode of something, you might watch eight minutes, or 10 minutes. But then you come back to it and you pick up the other 10 minutes the next time you have a break. All together that equals a bigger pie.

Josh Felber: Definitely. Where do you guys see the next phase for what you guys are doing and the way the growth, the market is with digital? As people- businesses right now, entrepreneurs are putting videos out on YouTube and Facebook and things like that. What’s that next phase? Where should we be looking to really start to position our businesses for more exposure and everything?

Rich Hall: For our business in particular, we’re huge believers in the subscription model.

Josh Felber: Okay.

Rich Hall: We feel like that that’s a way to monetize premium content. Obviously some people have done that well. Netflix, Hulu, now Amazon, done a pretty good with that. Where we feel like they’ve missed an opportunity is playing to specific audiences. That’s what we’re exploiting.

It’s important for us with our audience, we have the fastest growing demographic in America. It’s almost and it’s certainly headed toward being 20% of the US population. Most of them- most of our audience is bi-lingual, so it’s very natural for them to want to watch Disney movies on Netflix in English. It’s also natural for them throughout other parts of the day to want to watch stuff in Spanish, or watch content from Latin America. We’re just competing for a share of their wallet. Not for all of their wallet, because it’s very natural to have a Netflix subscription and a Pongalo subscription.

For us, we’re very affordable. Our price point is roughly half of what Netflix is. It’s a different way of going after our audience. We not only compete on price, but we also compete on content and user experience.

We started this conversation talking about broadcast TV. We have sort of a broadcast TV mentality, which is why we’ve got content that’s something for everyone and we’re half the price. Maybe we’re Walmart. Maybe that’s a better way to think about it, but, broadcast TV thinks about it the same way. There’s kids content on Saturday mornings and there’s adult content at night, and TV content and movie content. We think of ourselves as the same way.

Josh Felber: Do you guys see you expanding out of the whole Latino market? I know there- I think there’s 3 billion people coming online over the next four years, and with all the different areas from all over the world; do you guys see yourself expanding and really focus on those different niches of demographics?

Jorge Granier: Yeah, right now I mean our main focus is Spanish speakers. That gives us a pretty big audience of more than 500 million people around the world. I think that’s where we are. I think we’re focused on the US right now. We’re expanding to Latin America in Q3. Then it’ll be around the world.

Eventually, I think we might be able to add other languages for our content, because it is content that’s been very successful around the world in other languages. To introduce American audiences to the content that we have from Latin America would be extremely beneficial in my opinion. Then to make that content accessible to the audiences around the world that have already seen it or that know about it could also mean a big potential upside for us.

Josh Felber: Awesome. Real quick here and then we got to wrap up guys, what- it sounds like you guys are crushing it really great on YouTube. What- maybe like three highlights to help other entrepreneurs that we have out there listening to the show get out and get more views, get more people to engage with them on YouTube.

Rich Hall: That’s a good question. I would say for me, it’s experiment. That’s the great thing about digital. It allows you to experiment in a way that traditional media doesn’t. If you’re programming a TV channel, you have to make a bet, stick with it and hope that it works.

Josh Felber: Right.

Rich Hall: Whereas digital, it’s iterative. You go out and you try stuff and maybe it works, maybe it doesn’t. But whatever works, you lean into and that’s how you learn who your audience is. You learn what your [inaudible 00:29:48]. You learn what they like and you talk to them and you listen to them.

Jorge Granier: Yeah. It’s all about that conversation on digital to us. It’s being able to talk to the people and be in front and not be that big company that’s behind the TV which is unreachable.

On digital, particularly on YouTube, people want to have a conversation like the one we’re having right now. People want to have access to that. That’s what people should lean on when they’re trying to build their audiences and grow their audiences. I think it’s part of the strategy. Then content curation, understanding what’s working and what’s not, and lean on that and iterate quickly. Put out content on a regular basis. Be diligent.

Rich Hall: I think that applies to the guy that owns the car wash.

Josh Felber: Sure.

Rich Hall: In the old days, he would have to go make a TV commercial and that was it. Now, he can take his iPhone and point it at his space and have a conversation with his audience that he posts up on YouTube everyday. Or, he can go shoot the behind the scenes stories of his workers at the car wash, or whatever. Right?

Josh Felber: Right.

Rich Hall: He can experiment with stuff and be ballsy about experimenting with stuff. If his audience pushes back, then he realizes that that’s not the right fit for my audience. If suddenly a million people are showing up at his car wash, something he did worked. That ability to do that, that works in any business. Not just media.

Josh Felber: I think that one of the points that you said is definitely making sure that you are doing it and staying consistent with doing it. I see a lot of businesses and a lot of people, they pop up a video and then maybe another two or three weeks later, and then another-

Jorge Granier: Yeah. Success is not overnight on YouTube particularly. I think there’s a big thing to be said about being diligent and showing up every week and starting to build slowly that audience. Then it progresses, and once it gets going it snowballs pretty fast.

Rich Hall: That’s the opportunity for entrepreneurs verse people that work at big established companies. Right? If you work at a big established company, you’ve got to have 17 PowerPoints and 12 meetings to make a decision about what you’re going to put out to your audience.

If you’re an entrepreneur, you just make the decision yourself and you try it. You see what works and you can’t be afraid to fail, because the failure teaches you something. If you’re- and to Jorge’s point, if you’re consistent with it, then no single failure is going to sink your business. It’s just a learning experience. Right? You’re going to have some wins and some failures. The experimentation is the thing that separates us as entrepreneurs from the big giant companies. It’s why new spaces are always disrupted by the little nimble company that is able to go out and experiment and learn and not worry about protecting legacy businesses and infrastructure and process. That’s what digital does. Digital is the great experimentation platform for anybody in any business.

Josh Felber: Cool. Awesome guys. We got to wrap up here. Where can people find more information about yourselves, the business, what you guys are doing?

Jorge Granier: They can go to our website, They can go to our product and watch some of our content at They can definitely download our app which is named Pongalo on the App Store and the Android Store.

Rich Hall: It’s P-O-N-G-A-L-O.

Josh Felber: Thanks for spelling it.

Jorge Granier: Yeah, [crosstalk 00:33:19] comment on YouTube at

Josh Felber: Awesome guys. I really appreciate you coming on today. It was an honor. It’s really cool to learn about a whole nother segment that most people don’t have a whole lot of knowledge in. I appreciate you coming in today.

Rich Hall: Thanks [crosstalk 00:33:34].

Jorge Granier: Thanks for having us.

Josh Felber: For sure. I am Josh Felber and you were watching Making Bank. Get out and be extraordinary.